Interview with José María Gasalla: management by trust

Interview with José María Gasalla, andexpert lecturer, writer and professor

I have had the privilege of being able to talk to a master of talent development, a reference for me in the field of executive coaching, inspiring reflections and, above all, a great researcher in the field of trust management in organizations.

I share with you this conversation and interview with José María Gasalla, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

Interview with José María Gasalla

Expert lecturer and international consultant of recognized prestige in the area of change and development of organizations. Writer and professor at DEUSTO Business School in Spain. Fundaçao Dom Cabral in Brazil and INCAE in Costa Rica. Creator of the “Management by Trust” Model for Organizations.
Aeronautical Engineer and PhD in Economics and Business Sciences. He holds the Diploma of Advanced Studies in Social Psychology. Research Line Trust and Teams. President of the Organizational Development Group and Director of TALENTUM Conferences. He has also been a professor for 34 years at the Autonomous University of Madrid and has worked as a professor at ESADE Business School for 8 years, (where he was also Director of the Talent Management Program). Evaluator of the accreditation process for senior professional coaches and executive coaches of AECOP (Spanish Association of Executive Coaching).
Over the last twenty-five years he has worked in Change Processes and Management Development in companies such as: Barclays, Bankia, BBVA, CASA, Coca-Cola, Deloitte, Digital, Ericson, Ford, Guillett, IBM, IKEA, JOHNSON & JOHNSON, Mapfre, MCC, Merck, Calidad Pascual, Pfeizer, Repsol, Sanitas, Santander, Zara, etc.
José María Gasalla is the author of many publications , including the books: “The new management of people”, “Marketing for the training of Managers”, “Trust. The key to personal and business success”, “Who leads trusts“, “Subject: Trust and Commitment”, “Gaining confidence: Coaching for a teenager” and “Start it with yourself from confidence”.

But above all, Professor Gasalla defines himself as a curious, provocative, inspiring and awareness-raising animal who remains passionate about learning.

Interview with José María Gasalla

Q: José María, you have been researching and studying trust for many years… Why do you think trust is so important in organizations and in people’s relationships?
A: Well, indeed, I have been studying the subject of trust for almost 20 years. I bumped into her almost accidentally, I went to do a doctorate at the Faculty of Psychology of the Complutense University and, paradoxically, I was received there with distrust. They thought that I was already a professor at the Autonomous University and what was I going to do there, to take away a position, when I was already a doctor. I explained that all I wanted was to learn more and contribute something, if I could. Look where from there a professor told me about trust, Iñaki Piñuel, a professor at the University of Alcalá de Henares.

I, who had been in the business world for so many years, had never seen a management model out of trust. I had seen management models by objectives, by competencies, by values… but not out of trust. And it was as if it was taken for granted that trust existed in the business world, but all the research tells you that the reality is that the higher you go up the organizational pyramid, the less trust there is.

The reason is clear, the higher you go up the pyramid the more you have to lose. By having more to lose, you protect yourself, you close yourself. But it is a great paradox because it is really at the top of organizations that communication between one and another would need to flow much more. In other words, confidence is linked to openness, fluidity, and speed.

Trust: Interview with José María Gasalla

Q: So, José María, does this lack of confidence have to do with fear?
A: Of course, with the fear that the other will take your position, that you will say something not politically correct, that they will see that you do not agree with the company’s policies, etc. We are immersed in fears. My model of trust is based on going from fear and hyper-control to trust and commitment. That is the process. How to evolve from fear and hyper-control? When you are afraid you need hyper control. I am not against control, but against hyper control.

We are now in a society of mistrust. We see that the circles of trust are getting smaller and smaller. This is tremendous, because being in an increasingly global world, it is logical that we expand the circles of trust. But it is also curious that virtual trust is greater than personal trust. That is, we buy a Singaporean product from a supplier we don’t know and we send the money virtually and we trust, but we don’t trust the people close to us in that way.

The cycle of life: From DNA to ADR. Jose Mª Gasalla at TEDxFundesem

Q: Are we now relying more on virtual relationships than on the people around us?
A. Well, it seems that it is. Research tells us that if now someone we don’t know approaches us on the street and tells us to buy a device and lets us see it and try it on, the percentage of purchase will be much lower than if the purchase process is done virtually.

I am often asked why I insist on the issue of trust in a world of mistrust. I always answer that when are we going to talk about water? When we lack it, right? So, when do we have to talk about trust? Well, now, that trust is lacking. The issue of trust is tremendously current.

It seems that from the outset there is distrust. But it is paradoxical, since if we have evolved towards democratic societies and you are innocent until proven otherwise, in the same way I defend that you have to trust, until proven otherwise.

Self-confidence: interview with José María Gasalla

Q: I am reflecting on what role self-confidence plays throughout these years of research, although it cannot be generalized, have you detected if we have gained in self-confidence?
A: Self-confidence depends a lot on the environment. Curiously, something that is very internal depends on the environment and the level of training and education of the people. Undoubtedly, the less training you are, the more vulnerable you are, especially in environments of uncertainty and complexity. And the environment in which we find ourselves has an increasing degree of uncertainty. And there you either have a very settled level of self-confidence or every day you can start to tremble when you realize that your business may go down or your projects may be affected by the economic or political situation. I think it’s very important for each of us to work on increasing our self-confidence.

Q: Precisely that idea I wanted to reflect on with you: In these current VUCA environments and with the trend towards liquid organizations, with more diluted leadership, what role does trust play?
A: I believe that it is fundamental, at the moment that what has to be done does not come from “above”, from the hierarchy or from the norm, but comes from participation and collaboration, it cannot be done without trust. Before, even if you didn’t trust your boss, if he gave you an order you had to do it. Now we have to agree, and that is done from trust. Once it breaks, it is difficult to recover it. In VUCA environments and liquid organizations it is more important than ever.

Keys to an organization: interview with José María Gasalla

Q: In your opinion, what ideas are key for an organization to be able to promote and foster trust?
A: The trust management model is a very useful tool when it comes to driving a cultural change. The key is to create a culture of trust, where you can speak more clearly, say things that will later be fulfilled, act from coherence with what has been said. These are the seven “C’s” of the trust management model:

Professional competence: I will trust you if you are good professionally, if I see that there is a good level of quality in what you do, if you demonstrate it technically.
Awareness of the other: after the previous point, in order for them to trust you, it is necessary that you also trust others and that you also trust yourself. If you don’t trust yourself, how can others? These are two key premises, (trusting others and yourself) and from there “awareness of the other” implies respect for the other. That is, listen to them, participate with the other, take their ideas into account. As Humberto Maturana said, “love begins in the legitimization of the other as a legitimate other”, that is, not as a mindundi, but as another just like you, and this idea is not so obvious, although it may seem so.
Clarity: that you go with the truth, do not hide your truth, let’s be honest. If we have done something wrong, we must recognize it.
Compliance: we must fulfill our commitments. If you have already reached an agreement with someone, you have to do it and keep your word. We cannot go at our own convenience by breaking what we have previously agreed upon.
Coherence: what I say to others I must first apply to myself. If I tell you that you must do such a thing first, I do it myself and so I am consistent with what I think, say and do.
Consistency: that throughout your life your behaviors are aligned with certain values. You can change your clothes, your hair, but surely your fundamental values will be maintained over time.
Courage: daring to tell people what you think even if others may not want to hear it.

If you put these 7 C’s into practice, you are creating a space and a climate of trust around you. For me, when I am asked what the companies of the future are going to be like, I usually say that they are going to be conversational spaces based on trust. Unfortunately, we have lost the habit of conversation. Nowadays people are wasape, they are tweeted, but that is not a conversation. We have to talk again, it is a paradox, in moments of “speed” you have to give yourself time to talk. The procedure of wasapeing or tweeting has to be very fast, but in conversations we adapt to the rhythm that the other person needs. That is why it is something that we must return to and promote in organizations and what generates that openness is trust.

Q: Reflecting on the 7 C’s that you have just mentioned, can there be trust if there is no ethics or if there are no values that sustain it?
A: For me, trust is a meta-value. Ethics would be the boundary lines of the field of play. Either we play within those lines that are already marked and defined a priori or there is no one who trusts. In fact, trust is marked by this delimitation. That delineation may be different for each person. There can be trust in the Italian mafia, in the movies we see that they talk about family. The paterfamilias has the trust of the rest, but of course, unethical limits have been set.

Trust is broken: interview with José María Gasalla

Q: What happens when trust is broken within an organization or a team? Can it be recovered?
A: It depends on what the loss of trust has been based on. For example, I have seen it on some occasions, if trust has been lost because of the first “C”, professional competence, it can be regained. When that person has subsequently improved his or her ability substantially, he or she has been able to regain the trust of the team. The problem is in the “C” of clarity, with lies, for example, things are more difficult. When someone has already lied to you, what you ask yourself is: what guarantee do I have that they will not do it again later? But nevertheless I have cases, even on a personal level, that have resolved the issue. Here many times the issue is that the person who has suffered the lie feels hurt in his own pride and then hardly accepts to forgive the other person, even if it is a sincere repentance.

Many times analyzing more coldly, without that emotionality, you can see that it makes no sense not to forgive. In an organization, it doesn’t make sense that you have already closed your space of trust to someone who is going to continue working with you. I would say that depending on where trust has failed, recovering it becomes more difficult, (if clarity, commitment or coherence have failed, for example).

Q: José María it is great to listen to you and reflect with you, thank you very much for this exciting conversation, what would you like to add to conclude?
A: I would tell you that building trust is something continuous, you cannot conform to your behaviors and habits, you have to align them as much as possible with the 7 “C’s”. On the other hand, we have to learn from diversity. Now that I come from around the world, one of my learnings has been to accept, admire and learn with the diversity that exists and instead of raising it as fear, to consider it as an opportunity for growth. That means having a learning attitude.

I often say “Learning is living and you only live if you keep learning”. Unfortunately there are many “living dead”, many people who do not want to learn at all. For me, learning is wanting to change and doing it. It is not only accumulating knowledge, but having the will to change. It is changing your paradigms, your way of life, habits or relationships, but you have to change. Learning is the way of life in which we have to be immersed, in that continuous cycle of “learn-unlearn-relearn”.